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Some clarifications.

1. Taiwan is a part of China is just my personal opinion -- may not be accepted by other people. Even majority agree with one thing does not mean it's a right thing.
2. A teacher doesn't represent Canadian government. Even a MP does not.
3. Freedom of speech does not mean you have to say something's right. You just have the right to express your opinion as long as it doesn't violate the Canadian Law in Canada -- Not Chinese Law.
4. It's not nice to hurt some people's feeling -- the teacher still has the right to express his opinion.
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下茶话 / 政治经济 / 我觉得作为中国人受到伤害,所以罢课了.来这里请求支持和帮助.
    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛业余时间里,我选了2门课,一门法律,一门国际贸易. 法律课我上的很艰难,因为对加拿大的历史\法律都了解不多,老师举的一些有名案例也不知所云,但这都不是主要原因.让我难受的是教科书上对中国的描述,还有老师有时那中国举例说一些事,当然都是不好的了,也有不符合事实的.我不知道别的中国同学什么感觉,我觉得非常难受. 但大多忍了,有时也提出异议.好在法律课的老师还不错,说''SORRY",然后就换话题了.
    今天事的起因是在国际贸易课上,老师安排我们自己找一些国家来准备"INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PORTFOLIO", 并举例说可以选远的国家,如,日本\韩国\台湾.我当时就和老师说,台湾不是一个国家,(顺便提一下,我选过这个老师的课,这是我3次选他的课,了解课堂的规则)建议他说台湾地区.当时没想到会有什么,可老师坚持,说"WE TREAT TAIWAN AS A COUNTRY". "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TRADE,NOT THE POLITICAL ISSUE". 我说,课堂上还有许多其他国家的学生,这样说,会误导他们.请他更正.可老师拒绝了.而且不人为自己有错.我只好说,如果这样,我只好去找OFFICE.他说你可以去.这样我就离开教室,到OFFICE去了.我到了没多久,班上另一位中国同学也来了.我们向负责的LADY讲述了整个事情,而且,当时我们都是哭着说的,因为我们觉得真的受到伤害.我们可以相信开始老师可能是无意的,可当我指出后,他应该纠正,而不是辩解\开脱.
    我们2个口头提出如下要求:
    1. 必须在课堂上纠正他的说法,并向我们道歉.
    2.学校要提醒自己的老师避免在课堂上提及和讨论有关有争议的政治宗教等敏感话题.
    3.在没有得到答复前,不回去上课.
    4.如果得不到满意的答复,会向华人社区求助.

    我们两个提前离开了,现在,我想知道我们这样是否合理?另外,明天我们要考试,是不想参加了,但事情解决后还想补考.所以,决定明天上午递交一份书面的东西.该怎么写?
    谢谢大家!更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • too simple, sometimes naive...
      • u r talking.我们能做的就是呼吁解放军早日收复台湾,其他的都是瞎扯,现在靠实力说话。解放军不敢,我们就别吱声了。
      • 听说新话社招工?
    • 请中国总领馆支援,多伦多领事出面解决。 -- 老大睡梦里说到。
      • 政治不能干涉学术.....
        • 那就私下出面,先请学校校长到饭店吃一顿,然后。。。
    • 祝贺我党。
      • 祝贺阿扁
    • 不太好办.....没有太好的加压办法.....有中国学生会吗?
    • Support!
    • 台湾作为TRADE的一个独立单位,是没错的...可能你们当时和老师交流有误解吧把事情闹僵了.我们上课有时也会碰到纠正老师关于中国问题的误解,但都是象BRAINSTORMING,INFORMATION-SHARING一样的,不用闹大吧?
      • 我们也不想,是当时他的态度和话语很不好,让我们的感觉就是,我就这么说,你能如何? 我在别的课上也有过类似的事,可从来还没有象他那样的.
        • 目前最合适的解决办法,也许就是私下找这个老师谈一谈,这件事并不是非黑即白那么明确的,就算闹到校方可能你们时间上也耗不起(明天要考试?).不过我还是很支持你们的勇气的.
    • 那个学校?
    • Ding!!
    • Maybe you can file the formal complaint to some educational board? Anybody knows?
    • 笨,干吗当面冲突?
      • 你的意见...砸他车?
        • 他TTC
    • 都是哭着说的..............ft~ but admire you
    • 加拿大是承认一个中国,台湾是中国的一部分的.你可以跟学校谈.不行,就向教育局COMPLAIN.向媒体,向社区.向议员反映.一定要该人道歉.强烈支持你们.
      • 目前国际上的标准地图里,只有中国出版的中国地图是包括台湾的...人家老师是在上国际贸易课,提醒是可以的,矫枉过正就有点偏激了.
        • 谈贸易从来是淡化政治的.如果那个老师在有人提醒台湾是地区而不是国家的话.他还坚村是国家的话.他是在挑衅.BTW:WTO也明确界定台湾是地区.
    • 入籍时的法官说,今天有来自N个国家的新移民成为加拿大公民,有中国,香港,台湾。。。我事后私下告诉他,这些都是一个国家-中国。不管你个人意见如何,但是今天你是代表政府发言。他说下次注意。
    • 找找市长大卫 弥勒试试看。要哭着跟他说,也许他会陪你一起哭。
      • 你很幽默吗?
        • 是的,他很幽默,我笑了半天。
      • 弥勒捎话来:工会不管这事。下回他们再这么说,你就说移民到魁北可国 去。
      • 请别在我肩上哭泣。。。
        • 哼,你还不够资格
          • 谁有资格阿? 杨振宁? 我可比他爱国多了。。。
    • Are you a member of CCP? Please learn how to respect other people's opinions -- freedom of expression.
      • freedom of complain too
      • 你这话在911之前说还有人信, 911之后, 连自认最享有自由民主的美国人都不信这个了. Freedom of expression? What a joke!
        • then what do u believe?
          • Do I have to believe in something?
            • u dont have to, but the truth is always there, no matter whether u believe or not...
              • Truth? are you kidding me? What are you talking about?
                • well, do u live in china rite now or what?
      • 我并没有不尊重他,他有权利说他自己的观点---以他个人的名义.但作为老师,在课堂上,就必须注意言行. 如果我今天不说,班里其他同学会认为他说的是对的.
        • he said very clearly: "WE TREAT TAIWAN AS A COUNTRY". "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TRADE,NOT THE POLITICAL ISSUE"...
        • 如果你抗争不过来 就直接休学回国吧 这样更有效些
      • 您老混血吧???
    • support you, the teacher should apologize
    • support, you should complain, but not 罢课...
      • support, you should complain and 罢课罢吃
      • supoort except quitting class,for that's yourself business.
    • give the name of the scoole?
      • you want to ....
        • i have spare time.
      • 同学们,要文斗,不要武斗。。。
    • 加拿大是个移民国家,如果移民都把原居住地的政治问题带到这里来,加拿大就会便成巴勒斯坦、泰米尔、克什米尔,这是我们都不愿意看到的。比如犹太人和中东穆斯林,如果他们也要在加拿大解决他们之间的问题,社会岂不大乱
      • 所以作为一名教师, 就应该注意自己的言行.
        • 在加拿大教师有和政府保持一致的义务吗?
      • you think 犹太人和中东穆斯林didn't argue with each other in Canada or the other 移民didn't 把原居住地的政治问题带到这里来? don't be so naive.
      • egg兄的意思是别人可以随便讲台湾是个国家而我们默不作声,打掉牙齿往肚里吞,天下就太平了?
        • 我们也可以随便讲台湾是中国的一部份啊
          • 是啊,“中国心”不正在说吗。可您老好像不太赞成,觉得会天下大乱。
      • 没事,咱加拿大政府鼓励这个。伊拉克大选举,竟然在加拿大还有投票点。CBC经常请在加拿大的伊人在电视里互吵。多元政治倾向是多元文化的副产品。
    • To most canadians, Taiwan is an indepentent country. I feel it's very wrong for you to impose your opnion on them.
      • 哎不要再说拉,否则人家又要哭着说拉。。。
      • what are u talking about? do u think Canadian shouldn't correct me if I say Quebec is a independent country?
        • Canadian friends will say, "Well, if most of them agree to create an independent country, why not?"
        • What I am sure about is, they will not refuse to attend class or on strike if you said so.
          • But we are Chinese.
      • 台湾是中国的一部分好像是联合国、160多个国家包括美、英、日、德、法以及加拿大都承认的。不只是“中国心”的观点吧。
        • thats just one side of the story...
          • 另一side是。。。?
            • ask any ppl coming from taiwan...
              • so what? My cousins and my aunt are all from Taiwan, they don't think taiwan is an independent country...
                • so what do they think taiwan is? part of china? should be governed under cpp?
    • 加拿大人追求民主自由,你可以要求中国统一,他老师可以说三个中国,他有他的自由,他代表他自己,不代表加拿大政府。
    • I have to admit that brainwash really works at least for some Chineses -- for this point, I respect the achievements CCP has done.
      • 那你的意思是?
        • 春节联欢晚会要继续办下去
          • 请不要偏题。
            • have u ever watched the matrix?
              • 抱歉,没有。
                • then u should go and watch it, especially matrix 1...
                  • Why should I?
                    • cuz u will learn that sometimes what u see is not what it is...
                      • Thanks for your advice. But you don't necessarily need to tell me what I SHOULD do.
                        • just a suggestion...of course u can do whatever u want...
      • you think you were quite smart. eh?
        • I consider Taiwan is a part of China. I just don't like the way they react -- it's BS.
          When you discuss the issue of Taiwan, you are supposed to ask the feeling of people from Taiwan. Bring this type of political conflicts from China to Canada and force other people to respect your own political correctness is a kind of bullshit.
          • 本人的英文不是很好,你的帖子大概意思是
            1。你认同台湾是中国的一部分。
            2。讨论台湾的问题,应该问一下台湾人的感受。
            3。楼主的行为是强迫他人接受他认为正确的政治观点。

            看错了,请指正。

            1。本来台湾就是中国的一部分,所以,你是否认同并无大碍。
            2。这是一个普遍的观点,觉着应该问一下台湾人,是否愿意统一。其实,这才是最大的Bullshit。当年,英国殖民政府在北美的所作所为,有没有咨询过当地原著民的意见?
            3。楼主只不过是向那位教师阐述了,他们加拿大政府承认的一个事实。他代表他个人当然有权利不认同,但是,作为教师,就不可以不认同。如果,一个教师认为地球是方的,而在课堂上面传授这样的知识,你觉得妥当吗?当然,这个教师有权利代表他个人在加拿大法律允许的范围内,进行宣传他的观点。
            • Some clarifications.
              1. Taiwan is a part of China is just my personal opinion -- may not be accepted by other people. Even majority agree with one thing does not mean it's a right thing.
              2. A teacher doesn't represent Canadian government. Even a MP does not.
              3. Freedom of speech does not mean you have to say something's right. You just have the right to express your opinion as long as it doesn't violate the Canadian Law in Canada -- Not Chinese Law.
              4. It's not nice to hurt some people's feeling -- the teacher still has the right to express his opinion.
              • Please find my comments inline.
                本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. Taiwan is a part of China is just my personal opinion -- may not be accepted by other people. Even majority agree with one thing does not mean it's a right thing.

                But, it does not mean it is NOT a right thing, does it?

                2. A teacher doesn't represent Canadian government. Even a MP does not.

                The Canadian Government recognizes that Taiwan is a part of China and there is only 1 China in the world. Of course, a teacher does not represent the government. So, do you mean a teacher can teach whatever he or she believes to his or her students in the classroom? If you were a teacher, would you do the same?

                3. Freedom of speech does not mean you have to say something's right. You just have the right to express your opinion as long as it doesn't violate the Canadian Law in Canada -- Not Chinese Law.

                No, the teacher didn't violate any Canadian law. No, he didn't. Freedom of speech is a freedom that should be enjoyed by every human being. However, what the teacher expressed is not the fact recognized by his government and may not be expressed in the way he did. He, as a teacher, should only deliver right knowledge to his students not any of his OWN beliefs or speeches. What he teaches has to conform to the fact and international laws or protocols respected by the majority of the countries in the world.

                4. It's not nice to hurt some people's feeling -- the teacher still has the right to express his opinion.

                Yes, he does. But he should have expressed HIS opinion when he was NOT in the classroom. Paul Martin can believe that Taiwan is NOT a part of China when he talks to his family members at home or to his friends in a Cafe. But, he has to believe that Taiwan is a part of China in public. Is it difficult for you to understand this?更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                • You may feel frustrated by reading this: #2128572
                  • No, I don't. Is the definition respected and recognized by most countries? I can give you a definition of "country" if you need one.
                    • The fact is, the Canadian legal system has already treated TW as a country. BTW, if you can purswade the Canadian judges to adopt your definition, then congratulate you.
                      • The fact? Posting a piece of news to a forum does not show any fact. Last time I checked, the Canadian Government still recognize that Taiwan is a part of China and there is only 1 China in the world.
                      • Can "加拿大联邦魁北克高等法院" stand for "the Canadian legal system"?
                        • 加拿大采用判例法的制度, 如果一个问题没有法律明确规定, 则以以前的判例作为依据. 现在这个问题有了第一个判例, 以后对于相同性质的案件, 基本上按此例处理. 具体的可以看看林达写过的一些书, 我忘 了书名了.
                          • 是不是主权国家魁北克法院有资格裁决吗?另外,#2128664
                            • Basically it's just a piece of news. And I myself do not have much interests in this, just pick it up for your information. I even don't know how to translate those legal words into English.
                              • then it's only a news.
                • "he has to believe that Taiwan is a part of China in public." why should he?
                  he's just a teacher, not a politician. he also mentioned clearly: "WE TREAT TAIWAN AS A COUNTRY". "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TRADE,NOT THE POLITICAL ISSUE"...

                  come on, be realistic...
                  • Please spend more time reading my responses. He is a teacher and he should be professional.
                    What does professionalism mean? Does it mean a teacher can express whatever he thinks is right? If the teacher meets any challenge, what should he do? Insisting on what he believes, which could be wrong, or go to a local library to see if what he has just taught is the fact or truth recognized by most countries in the world?

                    I don't know what profession you practise. In a professional way, you shouldn't include your PERSONAL beliefs or feelings into your job. We're complaining of the job he did not whether he could express his opinion freely in a classroom.

                    I'm very realistic. Btw, I really don't buy your ''come on'. If you yourself also believe that Taiwan is a part of China, why don't stand out to support this idea? You call your behavior "realistic"?
                    • i believe taiwan should be part of china and would be one day, but
                      the reality is p.r. china and taiwan are two independent governments, economics, millitaries, etc...part of china? there's even no direct flight from beijing to taibei...thats the reality...

                      if u spend time to google "taiwan", u will find out more about how the world think about it...
                      • What do you imply?
            • Good!
    • 此坛大多数已经不是中国人,而是加拿大人。对那些不承认自己还是中国人之流,你说的相当于对牛弹琴。
    • 再多说几句
      我认为,探讨和INFORMATION SHAREING当然无可厚非.但是前提是场合和身份. 作为老师,在课堂上,是应该避免提及敏感话题,更不应该以自己的观点误导学生.这个老师多次提起中国的问题,比如,独生子女,还有讲课的时候说中国不能加入WTO,是因为中国的人权问题.这些都是有争议的,可以探讨.但是台湾不是一个国家是不争的事实,是大是大非的原则问题,

      还有就是,我提出时,没有多想什么,就象平时提醒一般的疏忽一样,是老师的反映和态度和平时截然不同,而且,反复强调,所以,才觉得他是有意的.至少,是不尊重我们的感觉.

      有人说是把原来国家的政治问题带到了加拿大,我不同意.学校里也有台湾来的同学,我们知道要回避一些话题.同样,其他地区和国家的同学也一样.这个老师在我提醒他后的态度及话语,摆明了就是不考虑,不CARE我们的感觉,是对人的不尊重.

      BTW,我从来没有加入过CPP,我离开中国,就象姑娘嫁出了门,中国有什么不好,我心里清楚,可有人以歪曲事实,说我娘家的坏话, 我也不舒服,所以才会发生今天的事.

      打击.讽刺.挖苦都无所谓,谢谢支持和鼓励我的朋友!
      • 支持!
      • "是大是大非的原则问题", 坚决支持!!
        • 政治上所谓的"大是大非"问题, 很多是政客手中筹码, 平明百姓还老瞎掺乎, 在台湾问题上, 每个人应自问了解多少台湾, 台湾人民是怎么认为的, 随着年龄的增长我认识到很多历史书中都不再是事实, 在民主国家中生活更应相互尊重对方的言论.
      • 中国和台湾是一个国家这种论调从来都是中国政府一相情愿,台湾人民从来没有统一看法,而且多数台湾人还是要独立的,不然阿扁怎么当选的?我是大陆来的,但我尊重台湾人自己的选择。
        • 首先,你不能代表台湾人民,所以,请不要提台湾人民发言。台湾是中国的一部分是世界上绝大部分国家所承认的。既然,台湾是中国的一部分,台湾人民就根本没有权力选择是否是统一还是不统一。台湾只是一个中国的省。
          • 你想强奸台湾民意?台湾人怎么想,看投票结果就知道了。
            • 我没有想强奸台湾民意,也没有这个能力。只是,台湾的民意并没有什么意义。你说呢?
              • 台湾人就不是人了吗?怎么能说"台湾的民意并没有什么意义"
          • "台湾人民就根本没有权力选择是否是统一还是不统一",一副黑社会老大的嘴脸 :-) 当年魁北克独立,可是当地人民投票否决的。
            • 的确Quebec是否独立完全取决于Quebec人民的决定, 联邦和其他各省并没有权利推翻.
              • QC是否独立并不完全由Quebec人民自己说了算的。要联邦同意,才可以独立。再去研究一下在讨论。
                • 我作过调查了, 1995年Quebec的独立事件, 自始至终联邦没有进行过干预, 不知道你所谈的联邦是什么?详细报道和相关影响及事后评论
                  本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Recently I happened to meet two Canadians
                  in Nagoya. One of them came from Quebec, and was in favour of Quebec's separation from Canada, and the other came from New
                  Foundland and was in disagreement with Quebec's seperation.
                  So, I intended to study this problem by using internet web. At first, I compiled some documents from the web, and then summarized
                  these,

                  I found that the basic, and the most important document, particulary for us to understand this problem was " The draft bill on
                  Quebec sovereignty". So at first I will list the key points of this bill. And then I will add some documents to it, being summarized . And at the conclusion, I will add some of my own comments on this problem.

                  The draft bill on Quebec sovereignty
                  Tabled by Premier
                  Jacques Parizeau, in the National Assembly of Quebec, on December 6, 1994
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  It will set forth the fundamental values and main objectives of the Quebec nation wishes to make its own once it has acquired the
                  exclusive power to make all laws, collect all its taxes and conclude its treaties.
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Sovereignty

                  Quebec is a sovereign country.

                  Economic Association

                  The government is authorized to conclude, with the Government of Canada,an agreement the purpose of which is to
                  maintain an economic association between Quebec and Canada. Such an agreement must be approved by the
                  National Assmbly before being ratified.

                  New Constitution
                  The Government shall, in accordance with the procedure determined by the National Assembly, see the drafting of a
                  constitution for Quebec and to its adoption.
                  The constitution shall include a charter of human rights and freedoms. It shall guarantee the English-speaking
                  community that its identity and institutions will be preserved. It shall also recognize the right of Aboriginal nations to
                  self-government on lands over which the have full ownership. Such guarantees and such recognition shall be exercized
                  in a manner consistent with the territorial integrity of Quebec.

                  The constitution will provide for the decentralization of specific powers to local and regional authorities together with
                  sufficient fiscal and financial resources for their exercise.

                  Territory
                  Quebec shall retain the boundaries it has with the Canadian Confederation at the time section 1 comes into force. It
                  shall exercise its jurisdiction over the maritime areas and the territories adjoining its coastline in accordance with the
                  terms and conditions provided in the rules of international law.

                  Citizenship
                  Every person who holds Canadian citizenship and is domiciled in Quebec at the time section 1 comes into force is a
                  Quebec citizen.
                  Every person who, after the coming into force of section 1, is born in Quebec or is born outside Quebec to a father or
                  mother holding Quebec citizenship is also a Quebec citizen.
                  Quebec citizenship may be held concurrently with citizenship of Canada or of any other country.

                  Currency
                  The legal currency of Quebec shall continue to be the Canadian dollar.

                  Treaties
                  Quebec shall assume the obligations and enjoy the rights arising out of the treaties to which Canada is a party and the
                  international conventions to which Canada is a signatory, in accordance with the rules of international law.

                  International Alliances
                  The government is authorized to apply for the admission of Quebec as a member of the United Nations Organization and
                  other international bodies.
                  Quebec shall take the necessary steps to remain a member particularly of the Commonwealth, the French-speaking
                  community, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the North American Aerospace Defence Command, the North American
                  Free Trade Agreement and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

                  Continuity of Law
                  Laws passed by the Parliament of Canada that apply in Quebec at the time section 1 comes into force, and the
                  regulations under such law, shall remain in force until amended or repealed by the National Assembly.
                  Pensions and supplements payable to the elderly shall continue to be paid by the Government according to the same
                  terms and conditions. Permits,licences and authorizations that have been issued shall remain in force until their expiry.
                  The courts of civil or criminal jurisdiction shall continue to exist: the judges presiding over them shall continue in their
                  appointment and retain their authority. Cases pending may be continued until judgment. The Court of Appeal of Quebec
                  shall become the court of highest jurisdiction until a Supreme Court is established under the new constitution provided

                  for under section 3.

                  The judges of the Federal Court and of the Supreme Court of Canada who were members of the Quebec Bar shall become,
                  if they so wish, judges of the Superior Court and of the Court of Appeal of Quebec, respectively.
                  The Government may, in keeping with the procedure provided by law,.appoint all persons required and take all steps
                  necessary to facilitate the application of the Canadian laws that continue to apply in Quebec, pursuant to section 10.
                  The sums required for the application of those laws shall be taken out of the consolidated revenue fund.

                  In making appointments under this section, the Government shall give priority to the public servants and other employees
                  of the Government of Canada or of an agency or body thereof, who resides in Quebec.
                  Until the coming into force of the new constitution provided for in section 3, the laws, rules and conventions which govern
                  the internal constitution of Quebec and access to English-language schools shall remain in force.

                  Apportionment of the Property and Debts
                  The government may conclude, with the Government of Canada, any agreement relating to the apportionment of the
                  property and debts of Canada, and to any other matters susceptible of facilitating the application of this Act.

                  Coming into force
                  This Act comes into force one year after its approval by referendum, unless the National Assembly fixes an earlier date.
                  This Act shall be submitted to a referendum.

                  This Act may come into force unless a majority of votes cast by the electors in a referendum held in accordance with the
                  Referendum Act on the following question are cast in the affirmative:"Are you in favour of the Act passed by the National
                  Assembly declaring the sovereignty of Quebec? YES or NO"

                  Result: 1995 Quebeckers vote against sovereignty, 50.6% to 49.4%
                  Source: Key dates in the history of Quebec
                  And see, "Mood at separatist headquaters: Joy turns to despair"

                  Comments
                  I was surprised to see "The draft bill on Quebec sovereignty" tabled by Premier Jacques Parizeau, in the National
                  Assembly of Quebec. It was almost perfect constitution of an independent country, and even though Qubeckers
                  voted against it, it was very close to 50 %.
                  And I heard, when the referendum finished, the Quebec Premier reassured the separatists their dreams were not dead,
                  and told the crowd, "We were so close to having our own country. Well, it's just been put off for a short time."
                  Like this, Quebec's independence problem is going to be a big problem for Canada in future, and it will be one of the extreme models of two systems existing in one country.
                  Recently some trade companies moved their headquarters to Toronto from Montreal, and also they moved them to Ontario from Quebec, because they didn't want to remain in a French-speaking society in English-speaking Canada.

                  As you know, French is the official language in Quebec government and the trial courts. If such a act as the Draft Bill on Quebec sovereignty comes into force in the future, this movement may speed up more
                  around the new country. So, Quebec citizens have to work together better on how to solve such a problem and how to
                  develop their own country. If not, their decisions may change satisfaction to despair.

                  Now, I remember the Agricultural Land Reform in our country after World War 2. It was the new national policy that let the
                  peasants become the landowner of their rented agricultural land. And the poliy was a great success, in our country, for
                  the new landowners were very satisfied , and worked harder and harder than ever before, and made wonderful
                  agricultural lands all over Japan.

                  Like this, if Quebec citizens have a lot of pride丂in their new country, and at the same time they are going to work harder
                  more and more, they will succeed in being a powerful country in the world.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                  • 1995年的观点不等于现在的观点。我前几天搜过几篇文章,大意是现在的政府不反对魁北克当地人民投票,但是最后还是要由政府及全国人民投票最后决定。
      • 你被CP彻底洗脑了。你去问问台湾人,看他们怎么说?你的话只代表CP社论。
        • 那你被谁洗了脑?
          • 我看的是事实。两口子一个要离婚,一个不离,拖了几十年。你说该离还是该合?你就那么看重“大部分国家”承认“”?哪个“承认”不是为了自己的利益考虑?
            • 你怎么知道你看的就是事实?别人看的就是洗脑?
            • 台湾问题有两口子离婚那么简单就好了。承认本来就是为了各国自己的利益,难道还为了什么真理?你太天真了吧?
    • For your information: 加拿大法院判决确认台湾的独立主权国家地位
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛加拿大法院判决确认台湾的独立主权国家地位 by chiliant (辣蚂蚁) at 2004.3.8 23:28




      加拿大魁北克法院裁决台湾是主权国家,引用现任总理之父认定台湾独立主张且合於国际公法上国家构成四要素。

      (记者洪哲政∮台北报导)针对台湾做为一个主权独立国家的共识,在国际间又有新的支持声音。据加拿大联邦魁北克高等法院上月一项判例内容指出,一个国家是否受到其他国家的承认,并不妨碍其成为国家的事实,国家的诞生及存在才是问题关键;台湾合於国际公法上国家构成四要素,为主权独立国家。这项支持台湾主权地位的判例,已成为加国司法史的判决先例。

      这项判例的产生,源自2000年10月31日在中正机场所发生的新加坡航空失事案;一位加拿大人因此受伤,因而向加拿大联邦魁北克法院控告新航。但新航将台湾民航局列为共同赔偿责任的第叁人,台湾民航局则向魁北克法院申请「国家豁免」作为程序抗辩。

      但加拿大联邦魁北克高等法院去年10月22日随即做出对我有利之判决,判决台湾合於加拿大「国家豁免法」中享有豁免权的「外国」,判例中并认定台湾为「主权独立国家」。新航原先扬言上诉,但最後在今年2月10日上诉期限前撤回诉讼,使该案成为确定的判例。

      加拿大联邦魁北克高等法院审理该案的法官MarieSt.Pierre在判决文中指出,加国国家豁免法并未对「外国」做出定义,「国家豁免」的原则源自国际习惯法,因此须从国际公法中寻找相关定义。

      判决文强调,一个国家是否受到其他国家的承认,并不妨碍其成为国家的事实,国家的诞生及存在才是问题的关键。台湾合於国际公法上国家构成的四要件:台湾有固定领土、人民、有效存在的政府以及与他国交往的能力。

      判决文并引用加拿大国际法年报中曾刊登现任总理PaulMartin,Jr之父、前加国外长保罗马丁在1968年的演讲内容指出:「我们接受1949年中国大陆胜利的事实……然而我们认为,台湾有效的政治独立亦是政治事实。」

      我驻加拿大代表处认为,加拿大魁北克联邦高等法院此一裁决确定台湾系主权国家,已成为加国司法判决的先例,具有深远影响,并将有助於台加双边关系的良性发展。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
      • "...判决文强调,一个国家是否受到其他国家的承认,并不妨碍其成为国家的事实,国家的诞生及存在才是问题的关键。台湾合於国际公法上国家构成的四要件:台湾有固定领土、人民、有效存在的政府以及与他国交往的能力。"
        • 加拿大魁北克法院裁决台湾是主权国家.? 魁北克也有国家构成的四要件:有固定领土、人民、有效存在的政府以及与他国交往的能力. 为什么魁北克不是主权国家? 狗屁政治! Man, 是不是主权国家魁北克法院有资格裁决吗?
    • 回去上课吧。给教授道个歉。没有“中国人”支持你为中国争气。
      • 为什么要道歉!!!!!! 继续上他的课同时继续敦促整件事的解决!
      • 坚决不同意你老人家的观点, 要道歉的是那个"professor". 我是留学生, 我觉得应该到各个部门去反映, 我的祖国需要我们去维护她的尊严。 入了籍的, 你们有权利沉默, 但不要在这以中国文化为背景的网站上发言。 谢谢。
        • 各位愤青,还没看清楚吗?即使那教授不给“中国心”穿小鞋,这坛子里的“中国人”也快把他砸倒了。
          不怪人家教授牛,实在是咱“中国人”太那啥。如果那教授说伊斯兰人都是什么什么,他能活着走出教室算他命大。
    • 我建议你file a formal complain to school, 阐述一下这个老师错误可能带来的负面影响,指出在WTO中台湾也只是一个地区,而不是国家。要求老师道歉并改正错误。至于罢课,就不必了,耽误学习是你自己的损失。 这里没有补考这一说。
      想必那个老师应该收敛一下吧。
      • 赞成这种做法。罢课过于偏激。
        • 爱国的同时要保护自己。
          • Right! 其实我记得读过类似的文章,说一个中国留学生在美国的一个大学竞选留学生会主席,而且和台湾同学辩论还赢了,得到尊重的事。
      • Good solution! I think this is the right way!
      • 这个办法好. 否则罢课最终损失的是自己
    • I was like you several years ago till I had an serious argument with a non-chinese friend, becoz he asked me a question: why do you think taiwan is not a country, don't you think they have everything a country needs already?
      they have goverment, they have army, they have a complete social system. they have everything, they ARE a country...........

      well, he didn't persuade me, but I realised It's out of my ability to persuade him that taiwan is NOT a country as well. or most of us call it "a solid reality" as Chinese government does now.
      • You can tell your friend that because Taiwan is not recognized by most power nations in the world, esp. the US.
        It's just like you have completed your university study and believe you hold a University degree.. However, your diploma is NOT recognized by anyone. Do you think you hold a University degree?
        • 馄饨 :-))
          • Well, I'm serious. If the global recognition were useless, why would Taiwan have been spending so many dollars BUYing recognitions from some Central American countries?
            • nothing is absolute, and this WILL be my last post for this issue. :-)
        • Hoho.... #2128575
          • 哈哈。敢问,这个判决在哪儿呢?已经成为了加拿大的法律了?那么,加拿大政府是不是违反了这条法律呢?
        • most time they don't care your degree and care about ur canadian experience. somehow ppl treat taiwan as a country cause they don't care about what UN say or CHina say.
          所以说应该抱怨老师把政治问题带到课堂而不是他的政治问题本身。
    • 很多地方都要改。 比如加拿大海关怎么能让ROC的护照进来呢? 那是伪护照, 台湾人应该持PRC 的护照。 还有这里台湾进口的东西都有ROC的标记, 应该改成TAIWAN, CHINA。中国麻木不仁和汉奸实在是太多了, 中国的耻辱啊
      台湾在渥太华还有个挂狗头的使馆, 建议大家砸了他, 让那些去办签证的人去中国大使馆去。
      • 还有, 我们中国人要注意教育那些不懂政治的台湾同胞。 他们见到我们怎么能说“你们中国人”呢?
        • They WILL know. ;-)
      • 这种联想要不得. 老师说台湾是国家学生就拒绝上课, 那我们都知道海关接受ROC护照, 岂不是我们要拒绝入境加拿大了?
    • 看到这麽多,突然想起为什麽鲁迅先生会弃医从文。或许是太多麻木不仁的同胞需要再教育。犹太人就意识到没有国家的可悲,所以以色列才会得到全世界犹太人的支持。
      • wtf? 台湾人也哭着喊着要回到中国母亲的怀抱?
        • ‘台湾’他就是不认咱这个爹,咱还能不认他这个孩子?
          谁不爱当爹啊?
          • 你当人家是tsunami baby 阿
    • 我认识的一个女孩子也遇到同样的事情,把她气得不行,最后那个专业不念了,怀疑你们是同一个老师,那些教师的素质太差,一点不professional
    • 私下给老师说说算了,别太叫真,台湾现在就是事实独立。很多事,国内的当政者都不管,我们老百姓还有什么能做的?说HK是中国一部分,为什么大陆人过去那么难,HK人过来就象逛街?狗屁政治!
      • 人家有香港暂住证啊。
        • 你说香港人有回乡证吧,他们办那东西很方便。大陆人想去香港、澳门还没有老外方便。所以,他回不回归关老百姓屁事,真正得到好处的还是香港人、台湾人、澳门人。所以不用那么去叫真。
    • 支持,换个老师吧。
    • 罢课毫无意义. 不过, 应该借这个机会狠狠修理一下那个老师. 让他知道班里的中国人很生气, 后果很严重.
      • 赞同。但怎么修理那个老师呢?罢课的结果不还是学生受损吗?
        • 罢课应该结束. 修理老师的办法很多. 每天告洋状就是最有用的一招. 告遍学校所有的部门. 一天一次. 连带说一说那个老师如何水平差, 如何误人子弟. 总之, 搞得他以后见了中国人就冒汗就可以了.
          • 呵呵, 别害得以后学校不敢招大陆学生啊.
            • 大陆学生都没有的话,估计那学校的收入可要少不少了。
              • 有点道理, 谁让大陆学生有钱呢.
            • 开玩笑啊. 现在就数大陆学生有钱. 抢还抢不过来呢. 谁会跟钱过不去呢? 学校以后最好别再招这种惹事生非的老师了. 他的嘴是爽了. 可会断学校的财路啊.
              • 有道理, 建议富裕的爱国同学们出资把几个加拿大的著名出版社买下来, 专门印大陆版的世界地图. 要是能买下加拿大海关就更好了....
                • 把加拿大大财团都买了算了,以后加政府就是红色的了,呵呵。
              • 倒不敢说大陆学生富,不过很多啊!
      • GKX to the president.
    • You will be a hero if you post this on domestic sites, everybody including internet cafe kids will give you strong support.
      I dont think you're wrong but for supports: do yourself a favor, go there.
      • That's all bull-shit
    • I seriously think you got brain washed by Chinese Communist Party!!!!!
      • 看的我头晕,我建议这样,前提是你以后不选这个老师的课,再上课你就说,魁北克做为一个独立的国家和台湾国一样............
        • 魁北克是独立的吗?有何特征?
      • 混血吧???
    • 咳, 这个老师的观念可能还是从中国学生(包括香港、台湾)那囤来得的:
      几年前,我上LINK课,一位水兰卡的老女士当教师。她说,她的许多学生都说:现在刚来的新移民,去教堂的真正目的就是为了找工作;中国政府鼓励大家把垃圾都仍到海里去。她对此表示一副惊讶的样子。我听到此话,顿时气愤不已:连这样国家的移民都笑话我们?我当时就质问她:“谁跟你说的?”事后一想,也是,我们的同胞们可能为了学习英语交流,连什么都往外说了。还是从端正自身的言行举止做起吧。看看我们的外交,那些外交官员天天义正词严地对外狡辩我们的政策和伟大形象,好象我们在外的同胞并没有得到应有的尊敬,倒是象日本这样的小国,他们外出的人的言行举止赢得了世人(包括中国人)的尊敬。
    • 什么也别写了,你们老师没错,台湾在世界进出口贸易中是作为一个独立体存在的,有不同于中国大陆的一整套体系.当然中国入WTO的时候是将台湾考虑在内的,所以台湾也自动享受WTO的一切贸易优惠...
      如果你要和老师在课堂上来几个回合,可以提一下WTO,不过老师并没说错什么.
    • 没意思~
    • 找DEAN complain就行的,
    • 你可以提醒他加拿大是一个民主国家,加拿大和台湾没有外交关系.大多数人不支持台湾独立.但是加拿大也是言论自由的国家,他有权发表和平的反政府言论,就像他也可以谴责美国入侵主权独立国家伊拉克一样.在WTO台湾是一个特别贸易区不是国家.
      台湾没有被任何一个有主权国家性质的国际组织承认为会员,象联合国下面的WHO国际卫生组织.
    • I agree with msgr's opinion but don't like the way she react. She has the right, so do you, me, everyone else include her teacher.
      Respect the difference is a Canadian way of life. Forcing a canadian teacher to accept Red China's ideaology is a bit overdone. What will you feel if someone asks you to apologize just because you have different political views comparing to his -- my answer is no way, sue me or get lost.
      • support
      • SHe didn't aske her teacher to accpet her opinion. She just hopes her teacher can pay repect to her because her political point to stop talking about this in classroom.
        • She can let her teacher know her feeling but has no right to ask her teacher to shutup and apologize -- a bit cross the line.
    • 按照最新流行的私家花园理论。加拿大是咱加拿大人的花园,如果你觉得不爽,请离开。
    • 我是大陆来的中国人, 我有一颗中国心, 我认为从1949年起, 台湾就是一个国家, 一个以中国人为主体的国家. 并且我认识的相当多的大陆中国人持和我同样的观点. 请顺便告诉你们的校长这个事实.
      • 你认为? 你认为有啥用啊? 美国国务卿刚说过"台湾不是一个主权独立的国家". 看来你和自由世界的领袖们的观点不一样啊.
        • 为什么要一样?
          • 当然不需要一样啦. 你也可以选择和共产党的观点一样啊. 我没拦着你吧?
            • 你引用美国国务卿说话就显得毫无意义了
              • 你的逻辑在哪儿呢? 连台湾政府都觉得美国国务卿说的话有意义. 你觉得没意义有啥用啊?
                • 看来夏天不热的原因是你发烧了,不然说话怎么前言不搭后语呢。
                  • 呵呵, 拜托, 别总发搞笑的贴子好不好.
        • 为什么要一样?
          • 当然不需要一样啦. 你也可以选择和共产党的观点一样啊. 我没拦着你吧?
      • 中国和台湾合二为一,会壮大华人力量,有百利而无一害。很多台湾人都是这么认为的。
        • 如果双方的人民都愿意合二为一, OK没问题. 但现状是, 台湾就是另一个国家, 从中华人民共和国在大陆成立那一刻起.
          • 据统计,有一半左右的台湾人民不这么认为,绝大多数大陆人民不这么认为。所以,这么认为的华人占华人总数的相当小的一部份,可以说是极少数。
            • 再有争议的话就看大多数国家怎么看,或者听联合国的。联合国/法院判了要照做,有不同意见还得照做,然后再上诉。
              • 很遗憾, 一个政治实体是不是一个国家不由联合国说了算. 这也是为什么没有人会否认1949到1971之间的中华人民共和国的国家资格.
            • 如果大陆不用武力威胁,那你说的比例还要有些变化. 谁愿意放弃民主走想专制?
              • 什么威胁不威胁的,联合国判了老婆老公现在不能离婚,还是一家人,老婆挚意不服从。我知道你能挑我毛病出来,就那意思吧,咱俩谁说了也不算,怎么让你开心就怎么想罢。
        • 我相信大部分台湾人不会喜欢大陆的政治制度。
          • 没错,但这不影响首要问题。其实大陆不会,绝对不会,在台湾搞类似大陆的体制。而且会比香港更宽松。军队归我,外交稍干涉一下,别的爱怎么玩还怎么玩。
    • 请不要以为和你不同的政治观点都是错的.
      • 在课堂上他是老师,不能用他个人的观点而不是事实来误导学生.
        • 他没悟道你,是你自己悟道自己.
        • #2129273
    • 请不要以为和中国政府不同的政治观点都是错的
    • 请不要以为所有的大陆中国人都和你一样的政治观点, 他们只是没有被允许表达出来而已.
      • 消消气. 别这么义愤填膺的, 伤身体.
        • 呵呵, 我一点都没生气, 只是告诉这位同学他没有注意到的一些事实.
          • 告诉你一个令你不安的事实. 你的看法在整个中国人里很可能是属于少数派.
            • I don't care at all. Just want to let you know, all the Chinese are not think the same way as required by CCP.
      • 赞同,大陆的中国人只允许表达一种意见,就是认同中央。久而久之就习惯成自然了。
      • 我只代表我自己.我只是要求讲事实.老师在课堂上应该陈述事实而不是自己个人的观点.我们如何相信他给出的其他信息没有误导?
        • 事实? 出国之前你知道多少事实? 你可以安装卫星天线接收外台吗? 你可以自由地上网阅读CCP不喜欢的新闻吗? 就连在香港这块中国领土上所出版的自由派报纸都不可以在大陆发行. 除了CCP允许你知道的, 你还知道多少事实 ?!
          • 没听过"美国之音"和BBC吗? 你对自由世界也太不关心了.
            • 基本上没办法听, 干扰太大, CCP的功率更强呢.
              • 不会吧? 我在北京都听得真真的. 每晚必听. 你那里会听不见? 莫非你家住中南海? 别告诉我你没有短波收音机.
                • 信不信由你. 另外, 别忘了中国有九百六十万平方公里.
                  • 呵呵. 你这样的在大陆的时候不会少听的. 你看, 身在北京的人也是可以"接收外台"的, 也是可以"知道事实"的. 对吧?
                    • 我#2129273的观点被你偷偷地转移了话题了. :) 我的观点: 因为CCP的信息封锁, 人在中国所能了解的事实极其有限和片面. 回忆一下SARS吧. over.
                      • 美国之音,CNN.讲真话?全世界人都笑了.
    • 受一党统治的确是件很悲哀的事。
      • 最后终于和统治者站到一起,对不同政见的人说 shut up!
    • 吵什么吵, 三年之内就拿下!
      • 这话五十年前就有人说了. 呵呵. 小时候, 什么画报里的都是"我们一定要解放台湾"的宣传画.
      • 我知道你有把握。可是假设“万一”拿不下来,你怎么办?
    • 请不要以为公立学校的教授必须支持政府的政策. 这里不是中国. 在西方自由世界里, 反对甚至批判政府政策的教授多的是.
      • 逻辑很混乱啊. 教授当然可以批判政府, 但是不能太得罪学生. 如果每次上完课都有学生去学校投诉, 那这位教授的饭碗恐怕要成问题了. 就象你可以和你老板的观点不一样, 但如果你总这样, 那你要准备走人了.
        啥叫自由民主? 这就叫自由民主.
        • 你把世故和逻辑混淆了,老师怕学生那是世故. 您逻辑开始有点混乱了,前面还比较清醒.
          • 世故? 你们真以为是活在一个自由民主的世界里呀? 这个世界适用丛林法则. 你让辣蚂蚁反对中国政府行, 你让他反对一下他的老板试试? 你不会说辣蚂蚁很"世故"吧?
            • 就是说你可以不喜欢他的观点,投诉他让他走人,但他不一定是错的。对吧?
              • 问题是, 没人能够评判对错呀. 就象美国国务卿说了台湾不是一个主权独立的国家. 你说由谁来评判他说的是对是错呀? 这世界是丛林法则, 嘴大的说了算. 这道理很简单呀.
                • 没人能评判对错,就是没有对错。嗯。
                  • 本来就是没有对错的.
            • 真让你说中了. 我可以反对加拿大政府, 因为政府是我和其他居民一起雇来为我们干活的, 我付钱(交税)让他来干活. 我们理论上是政府的老板. 老板骂员工, 可以理解吧. 员工骂老板? hoho.
      • 蚂蚁的逻辑还是那么清醒。
      • 你是中国人.不错.我们汉语中有特定的词语.来称唯你这类人.想必你也清楚.而且你也以此为荣.
        • so what? make some sense please, man.
    • 首先我认为你哭着说要么是太敏感或激动,要么是太夸大其词了。但不要指望在这里获得支持,因为太多的人已经把自己融入所谓的主流了。所谓的尊重台湾人民的人权,虽然一帮XX
      (算了,骂人的话我实在说不出口,也不想让人给删了,我忍了行不)连人权主权治权是什么都搞不清楚。
      台湾独立?台湾要独立了,无论从政治经济文化的领域,绝对不符合大陆的利益,不是GCD,而是整个民族的利益。但人家会care吗?人家要care了,怎么显得与众不同卓然不群而且融入主流呢?
      算了,不用在意别人的观点,也不用在这里和人争,没意思。为这个和人争得面红耳赤的,恐怕不止你一个人。和一帮连起码的民族廉耻都不顾的人,有什么好争的?
      • 道理说不过就请出骨气啊民族廉耻啊这些话来压人,最TM烦的就是这点