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Sorry cannot type Chinese now. I don't quite like the libral's "green shift" plan. It is too complicated, seems too in-mature and not well thought through.

本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛First 'revenue neutral' is from government point of view. I am very much interested in how much it will affect our ordinary people. I guess there must be some impact, otherwise why should I change the why I consum 'carbon'? I'd really like to see how much it would affect me and if there is low cost alternative way for me to reduce the carbon comsumption since, again, if I cannot get benefit from lower 'carbon' comsuption, why would I? One potential problem is that there are very limited low cost alternatives with current technology in quite some time.

Second, let's say we do change our behavior and reduce the carbon consumption greatly. Then, the 'carbon tax' collected by the government would be greatly reduced. How can government continue to maintained lowered income/business tax? They may have to increase tax. Now, the question will be who will actually benefit from this process?

Third, the carbon tax will increase the cost for all business not only those energy companies - otherwise, Dion will not propose credit to certain sectors and resident for certain area which rely on fosil fuel so much. This will greatly affect the competitiveness of Canada business. How can Canadian product compete with those produced in countries without this tax? I don't know if Dion had thought about this thoroughly. From what I read on various news papers, when asked about this, his answers were 1) other countries are moving in this direction, 2 US president candidate expressed interest in similar ideas, 2) we may apply special import duty to products imported from countries without similar carton tax.

What I think is although other countries are thinking of this, we have no idea when they will implement this (or they may not what to implement this at all). 2 US presidential candidates' interest? They are not president yet and "interest" is not even the election commitment. Add special import duty, I don't know under WTO and NAFTA, how much freedom Canada has to increase import duty unilaterally.

I believe Dion had this 'Green Shift' with some good intention. But, i just don't quite trust this plan would work to the benefit of Canada without more detailed analysis.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下茶话 / 政治经济 / Dion的碳税根本就是个骗局。国家税收的本质就是平抑贫富,Dion的碳税是从普通人身上收钱,然后在降低收入税。这样,豪富们的综合税率反而降低了,中产的税收更重。除此之外,政府可以有选择的给某一个群体减税,来拉选票,这又是一个新的不公平。
    Dion是个教授,应该很严谨的。这么久,我没有见到一份报告来分析各个收入阶层的碳税分布。大家除了猜测还是猜测。税收主要作用是平抑贫富,碳税如何调节这种资金分配,从谁身上取钱,花到谁身上,整个是个糊涂账。大众们糊涂,这个世界一定有人不糊涂,至少提案的人知道是怎么回事。

    凭直觉大家可以分析,穷人富人都是开一台车。的确富豪们一家有很多台车,但是一次也只能开一台啊。开车是个苦差事,每年的公里数也不会差太多,每公里油耗顶多差两倍,三倍,四倍。但是收入呢,豪富们的收入可以轻轻松松达到平均的10倍。就是说,收入越高,碳税的税率越低。不公平之处非常显眼。

    虽然现在的收入税已经很照顾豪富阶层,但是这个碳税远远不如收入税来得公平。Dion不过是借机讨好豪富阶层而已。
    • 除此之外,碳税会加大企业的经营成本,不利于加拿大企业对外竞争。物价会整体上涨,也是另一个弊端。
      • The oil giants would not be happy but good for the general public.
        • 石油公司主要在阿省,那里是哈帕的票仓,这又是Dion的一点小聪明。
          • Harper is the trickiest one – very experienced in playing small tricks and conspiracy.
            • Dion's plan is very complicated and confusion. on the other side, we heard no much plan but objection from harper, as if he was not the PM but opposition party leader.
              • 大选时,在台上的讲延续政策,在野的讲Change。正常现象而已。
    • Do you have a good comprehension? What you are talking about is exactly what Harper has been doing. Now he is trying to buy immigrants votes promising to give them more money etc.
    • 通勤较多的中产阶级会是缴纳碳税的主力,他们的利益受损最大。豪富和无车阶层会是直接的收益人。
    • 前提就不正确:国家税收的本质就是平抑贫富. 国家税收的目的是维持政府开支, 任何西方经济学的书上都不会说是“平抑贫富”。
      • 你说的是税收的另一个功能。我说的是Dion正在削弱税收平抑贫富的能力。
    • Dion 和 Harper 都看不顺眼,民主党能换个领袖就好了,Harper自打不去奥运会,俺就不想选他,对中国是一副高高在上的态度。 Dion的碳税也让人烦,话也说不利落。
      • 我也觉得这次NDP能有很大的进步。
        • NDP 这种党最好别上台, 上来了加拿大会大伤元气
        • NOTE: NDP Major in Toronto also called Tax Major
      • 这是加拿大选举, 跟去不去中国没有关系。还有, 你说的民主党是那个党啊?
        • 绝对有关,这是国家外交和经济政策的一部分。基本的互惠互利原则都玩不转,倒头只能损人不利己。
        • 我指的是自由党,不是NDP,NDP太代表穷人,不太代表我们中产阶级的利益,NDP也上不了台,上台了只会更糟。
          • NDP不代表穷人,他们代表的是另一群资产阶级,工会,他们在加拿大比资本家更糟糕。他们上了台保准第一年就赤字。
        • 我还在这里用中文与你讨论,Harper对中国的态度的确影响我对他的选票。我看不得他代表一部分白人那种(保守党居多),那种高高在上的态度,要有个Cliton可选就好了。
          • 对中国如何, 那是他的做人原则! 要我看, 我会看他对加拿大华人的态度, 而不是对中国的态度。
          • 像日本的福田, 去了一趟中国, 给足了中国面子, 赚足了利益, 然后下台了, 中国得到么好处了? 所以, 中国人最好还是讲点原则, 不要做墙头草, 做墙头草只会吃亏
      • 同意同意,Harper乍看乍不顺眼,可Dion又像个扶不起的阿斗,投谁都没兴趣,不投又浪费资源。自由党要把BC省的金宝尔搞上领导地位还差不多。
        • Neither Campbell nor McGuinty would take the risk, because it's not time to change.
          • yep, sounds right for now.
    • 你的解释站不住,没有听说过富豪因为富裕需要在超市买同样面包的时候多付些钱。如果要征收碳税,根据汽油的消耗量征收没有什么技术问题。开得多,税收付的多。加拿大不合理的税律制度多了去了。而就此类消费税来说,是相对公平的。
      • 不能因为有不合理的东西存在,就接受新的不合理,对不对?
        • 我认为这是合理的,反倒是安省的医疗税非常的不合理。碳税有多大程度的抑制汽油消费,不得而知,但是开车的人为环境做出点贡献是合理的。这笔税收应该做为专业用途,免得哈博用去打仗了。
      • 浅层次是所谓开车人多缴税。但我们的吃的用的生活的方方面面哪个不是汽车运来的。最后还不是加到每个百姓头上。穷人这种开销比例大,所以当然负担就会最重。弄得Layton都反对这个碳税,你就该理解一下穷人吧。
        • 如果政府盘活商业竞争,我从来不担心商家会有钱不赚,获利的最终将是普通百姓。由商家负担更多的费用,而不是消费者。本来制造、运输、销售这条产业链中,消费者就不该参与其中。
          担心商家转嫁成本到消费者,说明这个市场竞争不够充分。商家利益过大。就算不考虑碳税,随着人民币币值的重估,和从中国出口的减少,加拿大的物价一定会大幅上升的。
          • 市场竞争越充分,商家的利润就越薄,越没有能力承受额外的运输成本。幻想着商家吃掉涨价的成本,这个想法非常有创意。建议你上街看看米面的价格,再回来回帖。
            • 你说的好笑的说法恰恰是贫富加大的根源,穷人的收入没有增加,但是物价却在上涨,通胀的压力完全转嫁给了一般的民众,商家却可以通过操作价格大获其利。
    • DION说的是”REVENUE NETRAL“就是政府总体上不刮钱。 税收从来没有什么”预制 贫富“的功能。 加拿大签了KOYOTO但又不干活, HARPER反对KOYOTO但也不退出。 加拿大在这方面明显地把国际协定不当回事, 日后内部会有环保组织打宪法关系, 外有欧洲人制裁的。
      • 政府税收必须要抑制贫富分化. 资本主义自然发展,就是穷人益穷,富人益富,任其下去是个经济危机和暴力革命的前景。那样,大家都没得玩。
        • 加拿大的公司税才是最大的不合理,很多人通过公司的方式合理的避税。而这些小企业反过来由于轻松的税收制度,毫无竞争力的活着。公司25万只要交18%的税。
        • 富人富是因为他拥有BUSINESS, 拥有资本。 要预制富人, 就应该TAX 资本。象BILL GATES的每年应该收按他的资本收税。 看看西方国家, 收资本税的已经不多了(加 拿大的省还有)。其余的税都弄不到富人的皮毛。
          • 个人已经缴纳了个人所得税,就不应该再征收商业税,或者由商家和个人共同承担商业税。加拿大的商品税前价格都高于美国,在全球化的今天是不能理解的。或者是加拿大进出口的商家,能力太低;或者是商业链过于繁复;或者就是商家利润太高。
            • 你这话前后矛盾,到底是加不加商业税啊?前面讲公司税太低,后面讲不要加商业税,同是一个富人,在你嘴里,前后差距咋就这么大呢?
              • 我说的商业税,是指14%的消费税。由商家负担,或者由商家和个人共同负担。让已经支付了个人所得税的人再次支付商业消费税是不合理。
    • Sorry cannot type Chinese now. I don't quite like the libral's "green shift" plan. It is too complicated, seems too in-mature and not well thought through.
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛First 'revenue neutral' is from government point of view. I am very much interested in how much it will affect our ordinary people. I guess there must be some impact, otherwise why should I change the why I consum 'carbon'? I'd really like to see how much it would affect me and if there is low cost alternative way for me to reduce the carbon comsumption since, again, if I cannot get benefit from lower 'carbon' comsuption, why would I? One potential problem is that there are very limited low cost alternatives with current technology in quite some time.

      Second, let's say we do change our behavior and reduce the carbon consumption greatly. Then, the 'carbon tax' collected by the government would be greatly reduced. How can government continue to maintained lowered income/business tax? They may have to increase tax. Now, the question will be who will actually benefit from this process?

      Third, the carbon tax will increase the cost for all business not only those energy companies - otherwise, Dion will not propose credit to certain sectors and resident for certain area which rely on fosil fuel so much. This will greatly affect the competitiveness of Canada business. How can Canadian product compete with those produced in countries without this tax? I don't know if Dion had thought about this thoroughly. From what I read on various news papers, when asked about this, his answers were 1) other countries are moving in this direction, 2 US president candidate expressed interest in similar ideas, 2) we may apply special import duty to products imported from countries without similar carton tax.

      What I think is although other countries are thinking of this, we have no idea when they will implement this (or they may not what to implement this at all). 2 US presidential candidates' interest? They are not president yet and "interest" is not even the election commitment. Add special import duty, I don't know under WTO and NAFTA, how much freedom Canada has to increase import duty unilaterally.

      I believe Dion had this 'Green Shift' with some good intention. But, i just don't quite trust this plan would work to the benefit of Canada without more detailed analysis.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
      • Very well said. :)
    • "减收入税加收碳税,就是要让大富们为污染环境买单。",居然有人可笑至此。